Danielle – 00:00:03:
Welcome to Email After Hours by Sender Score, powered by Validity.
Guy – 00:00:07:
We’re your hosts. My name is Guy Hanson.
Danielle – 00:00:10:
And I’m Danielle Gallant. And this is Email After Hours. You know what they say, content is king or queen. It’s certainly true in email marketing, at least, as inboxes get more and more stuffed with marketing emails, subscription services, cash requests from foreign princes, yada yada. It’s getting more difficult to deliver content that makes subscribers pause their scrolling and see what your emails really have to offer. Plus, new innovations like ChatGPT are moving the goalposts for how email content is created and consumed, making it hard for senders to keep up. So what’s the recipe for great email content? Lucky for us and for you listeners, we have certified content queen Ann Handley here to help us figure it out. And she’ll reveal the one forgotten, or in my case, a formerly unknown metric that can give senders important insights into how well their content is resonating with subscribers.
Guy – 00:01:15:
Now, Ann, it’s such a pleasure to welcome you on to Email After Hours with Danielle and myself and we’ll do a quick introduction. I think the top level description of you is a digital marketing and content expert and I think a lot of our audience will know you as the face of MarketingProfs, and we’ll talk a little bit more about that. But there’s so much more to you, isn’t there? I mean, you’re a speaker and you’re a writer and you’re a best selling author and you’re an influencer. And LinkedIn has you ranked as one of their top voices and you’ve been recognized by Forbes. And what can I say, you’re a genuine pioneer in the world of digital marketing. It’s so exciting.
Ann – 00:01:56:
Oh my goodness, yes. Thank you so much.
Guy – 00:01:59:
But I guess you got a day job too.
Ann – 00:02:03:
Yeah, well, I mean, that kind of all is my day job. I never know who I’m going to be when I wake up on any given day. But yeah, I have elements of all of those things. You just presented a kind of composite view of all those things. It’s almost like a crime sketch. But anyway, yeah, I started my career as a journalist. When I was growing up, I wanted to be a writer that morphed into a career in journalism. And then the Internet happened and I founded a company called clickz.com, which was one of the very first sources of information for marketers using this nascent thing called The Internet. Like, how do we use this World Wide Web to market ourselves and our businesses and then eventually join MarketingProfs as a principal. And here we are.
Guy – 00:02:49:
And for our audience, I mean, I think a lot of them will at least have heard of MarketingProfs, but just tell us a little bit more.
Ann- 00:02:55:
Yeah, so MarketingProfs is a training and education company. We have about 600,000 Ish subscribers who are part of the Marketing process community. We focus exclusively on business-to-business marketers. Every year, we host an event in Boston called the B2B Forum, which is a terribly boring name, and you will forget it instantly, but it is the best B2B event on the planet, and it’s a lot of fun. It’s so nice to be back in person for the first time. Last year, we brought it back in person post pandemic, but it’s been around for 16 years. Something like that. I don’t know. I’d have to double check the dates. But yeah, roughly something like that. So, yeah, we host all kinds of training programs. That’s our flagship program, our in person program. But we have lots of online training programs and educational opportunities for both individual B2B marketers as well as teams.
Danielle – 00:03:48:
I am one of those subscribers, one among many for MarketingProfs. So throughout your career, and perhaps as the world’s first Chief Content Officer, you’ve worked with and trained marketers all over the globe. So from your perspective, what is the biggest challenge that email marketers are facing today?
Ann – 00:04:08:
Oh, my goodness. If you had asked me prior to November 30, 2022, I would have a completely different answer. But what happened on November 30, 2022? Well, you might not know the date, but you do know the event. And that’s when ChatGPT rolled into our consciousness. What is it over? Like, I saw a stat the other day. Over five weeks, it amassed, like, 100 million users. The fastest growing commercial application of all time. Insane. I’ve been to a lot of events this past six weeks or so. I’m kind of on a speaking circuit that actually just ended this week. Thank God I need a rest. But yeah, that was on the minds of every single person that I spoke to at these events. And it’s all about AI? Not just ChatGPT. But what about AI? What does it mean for us as marketers and as creators? Where I focus is very much on generative AI. So the content creation aspect and what does that mean for us as creators, as marketers, as creative people, but also what does it mean for us as humans? So I think that is both a challenge and an opportunity that we’re seeing in marketing today.
Guy – 00:05:20:
Absolutely. And we’re going to talk about a load more in today’s conversation. But before we even start talking about writing great new content, I think it’s fair to say that marketers need to do their research. And in your book, Everybody Writes, you talk about how important it is to seek out data and examples. I’m with you. That’s a key step in writing engaging content. So what does that look like? What are those data points and metrics that email marketers should be looking for before they start writing content?
Ann – 00:05:54:
Yeah. So I have kind of a holistic view of this. I guess in email marketing, one of the advantages is that we can know our audiences very well, right? From a demographic standpoint, from a geographic standpoint, we know what companies they work at, unless they’re using, like, a Gmail address or otherwise. But we know where they’re opening their email list, where they’re located. We get a lot of information about them. But when I think about how data is really useful for those of us in email marketing, I don’t think it’s just about the demographics or the geographics of your audience or even like the broad psychographics. I think it’s more important to think about just one person at one time. And that is so unique when it comes to email marketing. Because unlike other marketing assets or most other marketing assets, I would say you’re speaking directly to one person in an inherently personal space, their inbox. And the other thing that’s unique to email marketers and why I’m so bullish on the idea of thinking about one person and the attributes of one person at one time is that unlike social media, say, or almost anything else, if they unsubscribe from you, they can do it in a heartbeat and you cannot email them again. Right? They’re gone, and you can never darken their doorstep again. And as a marketer, I love that that bar is so high. I love the fact that if we’re not consistently providing value, if we’re not signaling to our audience, I understand you, you specifically one person, I get you. We don’t only understand your issues and your problems, but that we are uniquely positioned to be the answer, the salvation to your problems. If we’re not building that trust with an audience, then they’re gone. And I love the fact that in email marketing specifically, that bar is so high, because that’s kind of where I want to be as a marketer. One of the things that I think about all the time is that very often as email marketers, we hide that unsubscribe button or unsubscribe link in the footer of an email. Like, we make it as small and quiet as possible. Like you don’t want us.
Danielle – 00:08:00:
No, teeny tiny.
Ann – 00:08:02:
Let’s forget it’s there. But actually, I think we need to be thinking the opposite. Like, if you don’t like it, that’s fine. Thank you. We’re not a good fit. That’s okay. It’s not about who has the biggest list, it’s who has the list that is the most engaged, the most robust, most likely to buy from you, or most likely to maintain a relationship long term, most likely to refer to you. All of those things. That is the sweet spot, I think for all of us, as marketers.
Danielle – 00:08:24:
We’ve joked with past guests and of course just internally about how people in email marketing are subscribed to everything. We have so much coming into our mailbox.
Ann – 00:08:36:
You too? I thought it was just me. You too?
Danielle – 00:08:39:
Oh, yeah. We’re with you.
Ann – 00:08:40:
I love that.
Danielle – 00:08:41:
But as an authority on writing and content. What is your biggest pet peeve when receiving emails? Or what’s the biggest thing you think senders should keep in mind from a content perspective?
Ann – 00:08:55:
Yeah, I mean, I think we talked about this a minute ago, but the idea that it’s one person to one time and it sounds so elemental, it sounds so basic. But to your point, what drives me nuts is when I get an email from a business, it can be any size company, like can be a nonprofit, like it doesn’t matter. It’s like when I get an email that feels like it was written to a room full of people. And that’s what I mean about the unique space, like that kind of sacred space in the secular sense of the email inbox. Because one person opens an email on their phone, on their laptop to hear directly from you, they have opted in at some point to hear from you. So something about you allowed them to trust you with that email address. And so why is it that once we get that, we kind of forget how awesome and how special that opportunity is and instead we all start to sound like a less warm ChatGPT, right? We’re like dear valued subscribers, so delighted to have you on our list. I can’t tell you how often I get that and maybe you get it too. It’s so funny that you started talking about how we all get lots of email. Like I sign up for emails all the time because I’m like I’m always looking for that one company or that one example that just surprises me, that makes me feel like they see me, that they are excited to hear from me, or that they’re excited that I’m on their list. So that’s the first thing. The second thing though is treating email as a broadcast mechanism. And I talk about this a lot. For example, in an email newsletter, we focus on the news, we focus on what we want to say. We think of it as a distribution strategy. It’s a one way opportunity to tell our audience about anything. The opportunity to buy, to sign up for a Webinar, to download a white paper, like whatever it is. We think of it as one way. But I think it’s much more valuable to think about it as not about the news, but about the letter. So think about the second part of that word. Are we encouraging a relationship with our audience? Do we have the systems and processes set up to inspire the audience to engage with us, not just buy something or download? Especially key in an email newsletter, by the way, focus less on the news and more on the letter. I just think it’s such a tremendous opportunity to use it as a nurturing tool. So those are the two things that when I don’t see those, like when it doesn’t feel like they’re writing just to one person. And when it feels more news and less letters, I get bummed out.
Danielle – 00:11:30:
I completely agree. And before a subscriber even looks at the content, whether it’s being tailored to that individual or if it’s like an archaic batch and blast type campaign, they have to see your subject line. And we know there are so many pitfalls with subject lines being screamed at by all Caps or having the Re as though this is an ongoing conversation. But do you have any tips for senders in terms of crafting the perfect subject line?
Ann – 00:12:03:
Yeah, first of all, don’t do that, what you just said, because it’s so scammy, isn’t it? And again, this goes back to why do people do that when it’s like you’re looking to build a relationship with someone, even if that relationship is going to be transactional. Still, again, it’s not just about that customer, it’s about the experience you’re building and will they take away from it like, wow, that was tremendous. Like, I want to do business with this company again, or I will refer to this company. If you’re seeking to stand out with the experience that you’re creating, even in an email inbox, then why are you doing that kind of stuff? I mean, there’s a million tools that can help you optimize your email subject line. There’s all kinds of advice that you can get about that. I mean, certainly there are some things that I would suggest you do. Like for example, make sure that the value is obvious in the subject line, for example. But in my mind, I focus more on the From line and less on the Subject line. And it’s actually a mantra for what actually matters in marketing in 2023 that the From line matters more than the Subject line. I think marketers spend a lot of time trying to optimize that open rate through the Subject line when they should spend a lot of time optimizing the open rate from the From line. Because again, it’s the relationship with that one person who is going to drive your business. It’s not going to be whether the subject line matters or not. I’ve written some real dogs on a Subject line. I know that now when I go back and look at it, and those are not my worst performing emails, usually it has more to do with other things going on in the world. It’s a holiday, it’s an election. I mean, there’s other things that are going to distract my audience and it’s because my audience has a relationship with me. So I think focus more on the From line than you should on the Subject line. I’m not saying the Subject line doesn’t matter, it absolutely does. But I think the Front line matters more.
Guy – 00:13:55:
I couldn’t agree more outside of Validity. I’ve also done a lot of work with the DMA over the years, just released one of my favorite pieces of research, the Consumer Tracker sort of looking at email effectiveness through the eyes of people that receive emails. And one of the questions they were asked was what are the key drivers that actually persuade you to open an email? And I guess we all sit there thinking it’s going to be that killer subject line. But actually their top response was actually aligned with what you’ve just said. I recognize and trust the sender. There are data points there that sort of help me to go, yes, this has come from a good actor. I’ll open it and then the subject line on a similar sort of theme. I was looking at a McKinsey report the other day and it was saying that over 70% of consumers now expect companies to offer personalized communications to them and a similar percentage get frustrated and even upset when it doesn’t happen. It’s no longer a nice to have or a best practice. It’s expected. And I think most marketers have loads of data points that they can grab to deliver great personalization until you get to the point that the recipient goes, whoa, how did you know so much about me? And it starts to get a little bit creepy. So where’s the balance between sort of great personalization and overstepping the mark in terms of showing them how much you know about them?
Ann – 00:15:20:
Yeah, I know. That is always a dance, isn’t it? I think there are two ways to think about personalization. Part of what you’re talking about there, and I’m guessing what McKinsey was talking about is there’s a technology solution in place, right? Because we’re tracking everything, because we know everything about you, which is why it can veer into the creepy lane sometimes. It’s one thing I hate when I get that kind of email that just feels like it’s overstepping. I got one this week actually, where I’m going to a wedding in a couple of months and so my daughter and I were looking at dresses and I got that email that’s like, oh, you left this in your cart, this will look great on you. And it’s like, leave me alone, give me a break. I’m thinking about it and it just felt like maybe that works, I don’t know. But to me it feels like overstepping. Yeah. So I mean, I think there is that technology solution that can enable conversations in a way, but I also think that part of that personalization is the person. So there’s a human component to this too. And I think if we can balance those two from both a human standpoint as well as a technology standpoint, that’s where we can start to make some smarter and better decisions as marketers. So it doesn’t start to feel too oversteppy, just too invasive. And so I think part of it is the data that you just mentioned a second ago is interesting to me. I would love to see that, by the way. I’d love a copy of it, mostly because I like it when data just backs up what I believe. So I really seek out those moments where studies prove me right. Anyway,
Danielle – 00:16:45:
We all love that.
Ann – 00:16:47:
So I think that if we can think about just knowing our audience or encouraging the relationship between us and a person, every person and our audience, then we start to really understand our audience differently and we can make decisions. So personalization might feel different from your standpoint if, you know, like, I don’t know, that doesn’t feel right for our brand based on what I know about our audience. But then also from the recipient standpoint, they’re like, well, I like and trust and know this company, I’ve done business with them and so I’m okay with them encouraging me to download or buy or whatever the case may be. Like in my case where I said I didn’t know this company at all and I must have given them my email address. Either that or they figured it out in some way or I don’t know, I’d done business with them in the past, who knows? But I didn’t remember because I didn’t have that relationship. So if you have a relationship, it’s different. The other thing that I think about personalization is that just putting it in the control of the consumer, the recipient on your list, letting them say, here’s what I’m interested in, here’s what I’m not interested in, letting them set their email preferences. Again, kind of a basic thing, but I feel like there’s a lot of companies that don’t do that particularly well. And I have to say that I think I have used Validity in some of my presentations because I really enjoy the email preferences page that I think you still have. I actually tried to find it before our conversation today and I couldn’t find it. But I remember an email preferences page where you can literally go through and click like what you want and what you don’t want. But more than the fact that you are allowing me to set preferences, you are very specific in what I can expect if I opt into a certain area, which I think is so genius. So for example, if I’m interested in data management, you specify exactly like here’s what it means. Like I want to spend less time wrangling spreadsheets or something like that. Right? You know what I’m talking about, right?
Guy – 00:18:40:
I love wrangling spreadsheets.
Ann- 00:18:42:
Yeah. But it’s speaking directly to the needs of a person, right, and so I think you do that super well. Also your unsubscribe page makes me laugh too. It’s something like we’re breaking up. I’ll be living destitute, like I don’t need your help. Or I don’t know, it’s like a really?
Danielle – 00:18:56:
Yeah, we’re going to die alone.
Ann – 00:18:57:
Yes, it’s a very funny language. And so to me that’s a signal of humanity, right? So that’s a signal of there’s a person there and you’re making me laugh, and you’ve tried a little extra hard to make this B2B company human and accessible. And so I think that’s really valuable for any B2B company, or any company really to emulate.
Guy – 00:19:17:
Digressing for a second, but my all time favorite was the one that Groupon did for a while and it took you to the landing page and there was this video and you were introduced to Kevin, and Kevin was the guy that sent you all these Groupon emails. And if you really wanted to unsubscribe, you had a chance to punish Kevin, at the same time. And if you click the Punish Kevin button, this guy sort of walks in from out of screen and knocks him off his chair. It was brutal.
Danielle – 00:19:42:
Wow. I wonder if there’s some psychology happening there where they feel guilty for whatever reason.
Ann – 00:19:50:
Slightly manipulated, right?
Danielle – 00:19:53:
Exactly. Now let’s talk about that email metric that we alluded to in the intro that you think everybody should be tracking and that is Open to Write Back Rate. And we had not heard of this. I hadn’t at least. So tell us what it is and why it’s important.
Ann – 00:20:13:
So the Open to Write Back Rate, it’s OWBR. You haven’t heard of it because I made it up. It’s a made up metric. I have since learned that some email platforms actually do allow you to track it, and they call it a Response Rate, an RR, but I like the OWBR and I call it the OWBR. I just like that better because I think it’s catchier. Like the RR just feels a little bit like, I don’t know, maybe like a pirate rate, like an not as good. So I made up the Open to Write Back Rate because I wanted a more robust set of metrics than my email provider was able to offer me for my email newsletter. So I mail an email newsletter every other Sunday, going to about 50,000 subscribers. And yeah, I can track the open rate and the click through rate. It’s not an exact science these days, but I can kind of get a sense or at least of how it’s trending. I can track, unsubscribe, all of that stuff, but I wanted something that would give me more of a measure of my relationship with my audience and how they thought of me. And also, I didn’t want it to be a broadcast, right? I wanted it to be more letters, less news. I don’t want it to be a one way distribution strategy. I wanted it to be more of a conversation because again, it aligns with my goals long-term for my email newsletter, which is to strengthen that bond between me and the audience so that they know me, trust me, and either hire me or refer me. That’s the goal for this. Or sometimes like, buy a book, but all of those kinds of things. But it’s ultimately driven by my relationship with my audience. Any metric of success that I can measure starts with the relationship with me. So I wanted to be able to track metrics that I thought reflected that a little bit better. And so I came up with a list of metrics. I made them up just based on what I needed and what I wanted to know. And so one of those is my Open to Write Back Rate. And literally what it means is when a recipient opens my email, are they then inspired to just hit reply and write me back? And then once they do, what kind of things are they telling me? Some people will write to me a lot. Some people won’t write very much at all, but just to give me a sense of who are the people that I’m speaking to? And it just helps me craft the content that will truly appeal to the audience. It helps me just kind of evolve my relationship with the audience over time. And it just kind of also just gives me a sense of who these people are. Like, what do they see me for? That Open to Write Back Rate starts right at the beginning of the relationship. If you go to annhandley.com/newsletter, you sign up for my email newsletter, and immediately you’ll get an auto-generated response that welcomes you. It sets expectations. You’ll get a newsletter every other Sunday. This is kind of just setting expectations for the audience every other Sunday morning, and this is what you can expect. But then I ask you two questions. Number one, how did you find me? Because I want to know who is referring to my work? Who are my influencers, so to speak? Who is my audience listening to and who is then referring them to me? How did you find me? And then number two, what do you hope to learn here? And then I asked them to hit reply and write back. And the open rate for that welcome email is really high. It’s like close to 90%. About half of those. Well, just shy of half, so just under 40%. Then write back to me and tell me who’s referring to me and what they hope to learn. And that’s just enormously helpful to me in terms of just the data that I get from that is just so rich. So it starts there, but then I also build in those opportunities throughout every mailing. Sometimes it’s an overt trigger question. Like I’ll talk about something and I’ll ask the reader what they think about something, or I’ll ask them a pointed question. But sometimes it’s just as simple as in the email footer. I say, if you like this newsletter and you want to support it, here are five ways to buy a book. Hire me to speak, leave me a book review, that kind of thing. One of them, though, is just to reply and say hi. And a number of people do that and they tell me. So I decided to take you up on your offer. I’m doing number four, and I love it. I just think it’s fantastic. The question I get is, what do you do with all those responses? It’s like if you’ve got so many people writing you back. Well, I batch them and I go through them. At one time, it takes me about anywhere between ten minutes a day, sometimes not even that much. Ten minutes a day? So you can say, like, do I have those minutes every day to spend on nurturing an email list? Yes, because I think of it as my marketing, so I just kind of bucketed into that list. It’s about building that subscriber relationship.
Danielle – 00:24:48:
I’m thinking about how enviable that would be. I mean, broadly, that’s enviable, of course, especially with a 50% or around a 50% response rate. But I’m thinking of all of the B2C senders I work with who would kill for that engagement. Right. Engagement with the brand, certainly. But then my mind also went to the Deliverability Positive Engagement Metric type reward that that could yield for a sender.
Ann – 00:25:17:
Yeah. And I mean, none of what I do is particularly complicated. It’s not like I have all these complex technologies set up. I don’t. It’s literally just me with my inbox. There’s a wee bit of automation, but not much. And to me, people are always shocked when I write them back, because that’s the other piece of it, is when they tell me who referred me or what they hope to learn, I will write them back most often. Not every single time, but I try to do as much as possible. Some weeks are just crazy and I just can’t get to it. But people are always surprised and so doing things that are a little bit out of the ordinary, that are unexpected in marketing, that’s the goal of marketing, is to break through. And so when people are like, oh, my God, I can’t believe you wrote me back, then you’re doing something right.
Danielle – 00:26:04:
Speaking of breaking through, this is the first year that I myself got birthday messages made by ChatGPT and we said we were going to talk about this more, Guy. I know you have some questions.
Guy – 00:26:17:
Yeah, I mean, we nearly got here a few minutes ago, but let’s acknowledge the robot in the room. Is AI going to be the future of content marketing? And if it’s as good as we think it might be, how are human marketers going to differentiate themselves in future?
Ann – 00:26:33:
Yeah, I’ve been talking a lot about this. I just gave a talk this week to a room full of B2B marketers about it. My take on it is that AI is the helper on our shoulder. Think of it as like the little parakeet perched up here on your shoulder who is able to help us in very specific and sometimes very useful ways. But it’s. Not the writer or the creator or the marketer at the keyboard. So it’s the helper on your shoulder, not the creator at the keyboard. And I think that’s such an important distinction. The way that so many AI tools and platforms are marketed is as writing tools. But I’ve played and tested a lot of them and I don’t think of them as writing tools. I think they are incredible efficiency accelerators. I think that using these tools can help us through some of the boring parts of content-creation and publishing. 100% sometimes if you are a writer who kind of gets flummoxed at the empty page, it can help you with a first draft, with a rough draft. So there’s efficiency in that too. So the efficiency aspect to me is really where the gold is. It’s not about cutting and pasting content or writing that’s generated by any AI tool or platform and flopping it into your email or your landing page or any of your marketing assets. I think that is the absolute wrong use of them. But I think as an efficiency tool it can really help us. And the way that I use it is almost like a sparring partner. I will use an AI platform as a way to help me evolve my thinking. So for example, I might be writing about, I don’t know, let’s just say like email subject lines and I’ll write a post about it or a newsletter about it. I’ll plop it into an AI writing tool and I will say you are an expert in email subject lines, basically. Look at this, tell me what I’m missing, what argument am I not hitting on here? And it’s interesting to see the results. It does a pretty good job of letting me know if I’ve forgotten anything. Now I can choose to incorporate that into the piece or sometimes it’s irrelevant. But to me I like using it as a sparring partner for that reason.
Danielle – 00:28:42:
And this has been such an incredible discussion and a pleasure and a privilege to have you on Email After Hours. But before we let you go, we have a couple of closing questions that Guy and I pose to all of our guests. I’m going to go first.
Guy – 00:28:58:
Hold on.
Ann – 00:29:01:
Do I want a puppy? Yes, I do. What kind?
Danielle – 00:29:03:
We all want a puppy. From your point of view, is there a brand or a company that is just killing it with their email program right now? Do you want to shout anybody out?
Ann – 00:29:17:
Oh my goodness. I mean, CB Insights I think does a tremendous job with their email. A few things I like about it, I like that it comes from Anand Sanwal, the CEO. There are some other people at CB Insights who will also the email comes from them. But I love that, that daily email that I get from CB Insights comes from the CEO who uses his actual name. So yeah, that’s one of them that I think is incredibly great. And as I said, I really like Validity’s preferences lists. I mean, if you can post a link to that and you guys didn’t ask me to do that, but I’m just volunteering it because I do think you do a really good job with that.
Guy – 00:29:51:
Tell you what, we’ll flip the question over. Look at the other side of the coin. Is there a sort of overhyped marketing trend right now that you’re just really sick of hearing about?
Ann – 00:30:02:
I mean, I think we just kind of talked about it.
Guy – 00:30:04:
You probably did.
Ann – 00:30:05:
Yeah. AI is quite frenzied right now. And the way that I’ve been talking about AI as relates to marketing anyway, the talk that I’ve been doing is about let’s figure out what’s fact and what’s fiction. Right? So given the frenzy, let’s look at what’s real and what isn’t real. And one of those things is that AI writes better than we do. I don’t think that’s true.
Guy – 00:30:28:
No, not yet, anyhow. Listen, echoing Danielle’s comments, I mean, this has been such a great conversation today, and thank you so much.
Ann – 00:30:35:
Thanks for having me. It’s super fun.
Guy – 00:30:37:
Danielle, just before we wrap, we need to tell our audience what’s coming up next.
Danielle – 00:30:41:
Buckle up, guys, because it is a Guy and Danielle solo episode, I actually have no idea. I’m sure we’ll figure it out, Guy. There’s more than enough email marketing to talk about, so tune in next time. Thanks, everybody.
Guy – 00:30:56:
Be sure to tune in next time and hit subscribe so you don’t miss any future episodes. And don’t forget to visit senderscore.com for loads more great resources to help you become a stronger sender.
Danielle – 00:31:08:
To all you sleepless senders out there. Thank you for joining us after hours and see you next time.
